Hey, now we're finding common ground! Sincerely, I agree with basically all of this, and the other stuff about the current capitalist regime not really respecting the rights of people any better than the hypothetical indigenous totalitarian government that wants to kick out all the white people. The only thing I really wanted to push back on was the idea that it'd be totally okay for mass deportations or imprisonments to happen as long as it was indigenous people doing it. Even keeping in mind that I've got a lot of white privilege and that I can never know what it's like to be in those shoes, I feel like it's still legitimate to say that there is a point where it would cross over into """reverse oppression""" or whatever; of course that point is essentially impossible to actually reach in practice so it's not worth worrying about other than bickering on a forum. We should be so lucky to be worrying about "geez, are indigenous groups gaining so much power that they might actually be a threat to the American government???"

I never said I thought they'd treat me like this. In fact, I don't, for exactly the reasons you're listing. You are the one saying that it would be okay to treat me like this, which is why I've been talking to you about your statements, not them.

Thanks for your concern, I'll make sure to double check my standing with them but I think I'll be alright. Maybe if I'm lucky, I can do a DNA test and find some indigenous ancestry that I didn't know about, the thresholds would probably have to be pretty low but it's possible I could squeak in there and get to be on the ruling side instead.

As far as I can tell, I'm being told that in this hypothetical scenario, it's okay for me to be jailed or removed from my home because I'm not indigenous. Am I misreading it?

As far as I know, my ancestors didn't steal anything. It's possible they did, and I'm sure they unfairly benefitted from systemic injustice and oppression of others, and I'm happy to help address that at the expense of my own privilege, but I don't see how that makes it okay to literally deport me to some strange country for their hypothetical crimes.

I really didn't think I was being subtle here. I'm going to stop "just asking questions" and instead say that I'm surprised to see, in this of all threads, a sincere argument that there are some circumstances where it is okay for one ethnic group to systemically displace another, despite both groups only having that place to claim as a homeland.

I don't have another country waiting to accept me, and I don't particularly want to leave the only place I've ever lived, so if they want me gone, it is their problem. Are they tossing me in jail because I have the wrong ethnicity? Deporting me to a place I have no connection to?

I couldn't name a single ancestor of mine that wasn't born in America, so where would I get shipped off to?

(Postal worker or mail carrier)

The squabbling process moves the law toward meeting the needs of more people. If a dictator just gets to decide what the law is, they'll likely be self-serving to the dictator, or even outright harmful to entire categories of people.

Stake through her heart and garlic 'round her neck

:(){ :|:& };:

And doesn't understand LLMs, which don't "learn" a damn thing after the training is completed. The only variation after that is random numbers and the input it receives.

I only have so many minutes to spend on this plane of existence, so if I look through something and decide "this isn't enough to go anywhere", then no, I'm not going to spend more time on it. I'd be happy to be wrong and see Trump and his cronies get brought down by a ragtag group of statisticians who found the truth and didn't give up until justice was served, but I really don't think that'll happen.

... did you read the update to that last link? Kinda undermined quite a bit of this.

I'm open to the idea that a conspiracy happened. We know they aren't above things like sending an alternate slate of electoral votes and then hoping to override the legitimate results in Congress, because that absolutely did happen. But stealing seven separate elections in all the swing states is a hell of a tough job, and harder to do it without being caught for months. If it did happen, there'd be more evidence than just statistical anomalies within the official results. You'd see people recorded as voting who say they never did, you'd see exit polls that don't make sense, you'd see an audit reveal missing paper ballots, there'd be something more. And even if it was the perfect crime, you'll need to find a flaw to actually get anything done about it anyway. There isn't enough here to say it happened. There's enough to look into some suspicious stuff in a few places, and go ahead and check those out, but don't get your hopes up or say that it's the only conclusion. The simplest and most obvious answer remains the most likely: the country elected Trump by choice.

When did I say I don't trust math people? I do, but not when they're saying "these numbers don't look quite right, so here's an entire story about how maybe they used satellites to steal an election." I've said repeatedly through the thread that this stuff should be looked at, but we need to keep in mind that stealing an election is very hard to do and not immediately dismiss contrary evidence like the fact that many elections that absolutely could not be manipulated the same way showed a similar result of a giant swing to the right, or that independent exit polls didn't report anything unusual.

ITT: people saying "the US and China both seem bad" and being told that they obviously just want to kiss America square on the lips because China has never done anything bad ever

I'm open to the idea that there might be something here, I just haven't seen anything particularly compelling, it's all been very typical conspiracy theory stuff. The Trump lawyer thing I did hear about, I don't remember anything about actually changing results though, just unauthorized access. Trump saying something suspicious, well, he says a lot of stuff. The drop off rates being different between the two candidates seems sensible to me, I'd expect quite a few Trump voters to just care about Trump and not the rest of the races, and less so on the Democratic side. It's the reason turnout now seems to help Republicans, they've won over a lot of unreliable voters and Trump brings them out better than most. A coordinated, multi-state conspiracy to rig the election seems very unlikely to stay completely airtight for over a year.

Is there a source that specifically claims that these anomalies are happening in states using the same voting system and not in others? I haven't seen that in anything linked to me so far, and that would be at least interesting.

The breathless reporting and big numbers immediately set off my BS detector. Usually, when a stat says something like "the odds of this happening purely by chance are 1 In a hojillion!" it's just bad statistics, for example saying "even if each of my windows had a 75% chance of breaking in the hurricane, the odds that all of them would break is less than 1%, so clearly someone sabotaged my house!" No, they were all in the same hurricane, not independent random hurricanes, you can't just multiply the probabilities like that. It's very easy to do bad stats and come up with wild results.

It also looks like this is mostly focused on Pennsylvania, where there's actually more to look at. Again, sure! It's worth looking into. Let's see evidence that this crosses state lines and isn't just Pennsylvania. Let's see evidence that the machines really were vulnerable and not just that they could've been. Let's find someone who will name names and give specifics about this conspiracy. If this stuff is true, it'll get picked up by more sober voices that aren't yelling "it was stolen, it was stolen, don't you all see???" and then it might be worth tuning in.

Okay, so where's the massive exit poll discrepancy between who voters say they voted for and the official results? That would be a red flag worth paying attention to, if it showed inconsistent results between down ballot and top line races but only in states that used these supposedly compromised voting machines.